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Workers BushTelegraph discusses current and past events, books and film with the aim of sharing worker political education and consciousness. WBT poses 3 questions: who owns the land, workers control of production and democratic rights.

Shut down mining

They do not, by and large, like politicians – I suppose that, by and large, they do not really like anyone much – but they ‘have a certain respect for them the same way they might have for a horse or a gun dog. There is of course, a lot of Texan among this stratum of millionaire. A lot of them are sort of high-class John Wayne’s – enormously rich John Wayne’s who don’t feel it necessary to do their own barroom brawling. – JOHN HEPWORTH on International Capitalists.

Paradigm Shift 4 Nov 2022
On today’s show we hear about resistance to the International Mining And Resources Conference happening presently in Sydney.

Andy speaks to Jonah Shabtay from live at the protests, to Marisol Salinas about organising an international counter-conference, and to lawyer Anastasia Radievska about some of the most ridiculous over the top policing of protest we have seen in a long time.

Songs
Lasso – Nemesis
Malik Yusef, Kumasi, Aaron Fresh, Choklate & Laci Kay – Trouble in the water
Rivermouth – Dig it up
Madeline Antoine – Elegy for a burning world

Stopping IMARC

Fri, Nov 04, 2022 12:00PM • 59:07

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

protest, people, blockade, police, new south wales, happening, sydney, conference, australia, bit, part, protesters, mining, digging, week, jonah, anastasia, companies, called, imac

SPEAKERS

Anastasia Radievska, Jonah Shabtay, Andy, Rivermouth, Marisol Salinas

Andy 

Welcome to the paradigm shift on fortunately said one or 2.1 where we challenge the assumptions of our current society to resist oppression and investigate alternative ways of living for a world based on justice, solidarity and sustainability. Ahead mob mob download

Andy 

Gari Gynda Narmi, welcome to the paradigm shift on four triple Zed 102.1 F M. It’s your local community radio station you’re currently tuned to. And my name is Andy, and I’ll be hanging out with you for the next hour until one o’clock. And today on the show I’m going to be talking about IMARC, the international mining and resources conference that is on right now as we speak in Sydney, I’ve got the little PR thing on their own website here, seven and a half 1000 Plus attendees, 100 plus countries, 470 exhibitors, more than 800 mining companies on the 450 speakers on 17,000 square meters of expo floor. That’s what’s happening at iMac. And they’re all They’re talking about how to make a buck out of digging up stuff out of the ground, or they weren’t talked much about is the damage that they’re doing to our environment in various ways to our climate and to the cultures in many of the places where those things being dug up. In fact, the democracies and government as well as the human rights of people, where they things are being dug up. And so it’s up to the protesters to do that. And as such, there is a group outside the Darling Harbour convention center right now in Sydney, under the name blockade II mark, they are doing a bit of a protest and a bit of a counter gathering to talk about what other possibilities are there for international connections beyond making money out of digging up things out of the ground. So today on the show, I’m going to talk about Jonah Shabtay , who is there at blockade IMARC, I spoke to him just half an hour ago or so about what’s going on. I’m also going to speak to Marisol Salinas, who is part of last net Latin American Solidarity Network and also part of blockade IMARC about a conference say organised a counter conference called life and death. Talking about resisting extractivism across borders. And I’ll also speak to Anastasia Radievska, who is a lawyer in Sydney, and who’s going to give us a bit of a report on a new feature of iMac this year, which is extraordinary intimidation and harassment of protesters some of the most incredible policing I have ever seen in the last week or two. Police have paid more than 40 visits to the houses of people who are known climate activists and have warned them that if they turn up to iMac and protest that they could be breaking laws and facing serious penalties. Of course, New South Wales has brought in new laws targeting protesters, as you may have heard on the paradigm shift a couple of weeks ago. And so that is what’s been happening. And so I spoke to Anastasia who has been keeping track of it or for legal observers in New South Wales. So stay tuned. Anyway, that is what’s coming up or chat with Jonah in a minute, literally a minute, but to get us there. I thought in the spirit of internationalism, I’ll play a brand new song from indigenous Brazilian punks. lesu. This one is about rainforest destruction. It’s called Nemesis

Andy 

That is lassoo out of Brazil. Of course, if you’ve been following the news, good news for the Amazon rainforest, at least in Brazil, in that Lula, their former president has won the presidential election there and higher Bolsonaro, who amazing didn’t much believe in democracy didn’t believe in any COVID laws or anything and didn’t believe in protecting the Amazon rainforest or anything like that. He has lost his place as Brazilian president. But back to I mark the international mining resources Conference, which we were just talking about, I spoke to Jonah Shabbetai, who is currently outside, I’m Mark as part of blockade iron mark. Let’s see what Jonah has to say.

Jonah Shabtay 

My name is Jonah. And I’m here at the block AI mass protests in Sydney. Yeah, first time that the conference has come to Sydney and here we are.

Andy 

Okay. Well, to start off with, do you want to tell us a bit about what is I’m Mark?

Jonah Shabtay 

I’m on the international mining and resources Conference, which is, yeah, it’s been held in Melbourne, up until this year, and government has moved to Sydney. And it’s essentially where Yeah, 100 the companies as well as government ministers. And yeah, people interested in the industry come together, and they feel they come together and share the greenwashed lies, they come together and plot ways to mine as much as they can from Australia and around the world. It’s very well protected, very well funded as well. It’s moved to Sydney. This has been said by the recent minister, to have unprecedented levels of funding from the New South Wales Government. And, yeah, essentially, we’re here to resist, we’re here to show some voice that is in opposition to what’s going on here, because they’re certainly certainly not the green picture that they’re trying to paint.

Andy 

There’s been some speculating that the reason it’s moved to Sydney is because of big protests in Melbourne in recent years when Iron Mark has been held. Do you think there’s anything to that?

Jonah Shabtay 

Yeah, absolutely. You know, there was there was a pretty huge turnout to the protests in Melbourne, which got pretty gnarly, got pretty exciting, and, and this year, they’ve moved to Sydney, which happens to come at the time where Sydney over New South Wales has introduced a fleet of new laws against protesting, particularly against blocking roads. And as well as these, they’re protesting StrikeForce StrikeForce guard, which was deployed this year on a number of protests. And yeah, you know, it’s pretty clear that New South Wales is becoming has been for a while a very sort of protected police state. And I mark seems to be, you know, a target among environmental protesters for obvious reasons. And, you know, it seems like they are offering a lot of protection or the government’s offering a lot of protection to the convent, here in Sydney. And, you know, this week, we’ve seen Yeah, we’ve just seen that come out in full force. I mean, there’s hundreds of conduits and blocking every single major bridge and Road station to every station in every train station. I’m actually looking at two police boats in Darling Harbour right now and just, you know, schmoozing and it’s kind of ridiculous.

Andy 

The police presence there at the conference must be quite something to behold and it certainly has been in the last couple of weeks with police stopping in different people’s houses will speak a bit more on the show with a lawyer Anastasia about that, but how do you think that’s affected the ability for people resist the conference?

Jonah Shabtay 

Yeah, I mean, here at the conference has hundreds of choice and you know, like dispersed among the whole surround and pretty much locked down to see Whether at every train station, and, you know, I was chatting to one of them, and they pulled cops from all over the city for this event. And yeah, as well as you know, heaps of detectives that have been, as you say, visiting homes and harassing people in, you know, pre emptive preemptive strikes or whatever they want under strike, strike force guard, which is, yeah, it’s intimidation, and they really don’t have anything substantial to validate those visits and that harassment, because, you know, nothing has happened here, that, you know, has warranted that kind of response. There’s actually been, you know, like permissions granted to the protesters here. And, you know, it’s almost embarrassing for them, like, when you look at the numbers of police that they’ve deployed, and, yeah, not to mention that, you know, people have been harassed at their family homes, mine included. And yeah, you know, I’ve never been to an IMAX protest in my life until this time, and yet, they, you know, have now deemed me and a bunch of others as worthy of intimidation anytime, it seems that there’s going to be a protest. So yeah, but we still have seen some good numbers come out today. You know, considering it’s the first time in Sydney, there’s a good turnout. And we’ve got some good groups represented here. We’ve got the extinction rebellion, we’ve got Bob Brown Foundation, who are here to talk about the Tarkine, which has been directly assaulted by one of the companies in the building. And as well as we’ve got the John rebellion, we’ve got the socialist Alliance. And we’ve got like a coalition of people sort of forming this blockade I’ma event, which is pretty, pretty encouraging for Sydney.

Andy 

And one of the things that you’ve tried to do is, yeah, do a bit of imagining alternatives to extractivism in today’s proceedings, and speeches and things like that.

Jonah Shabtay 

Yeah, yeah. So we’ve had a few breakout discussions, which seems to be a pretty cool way to engage protesters in conversation, you know, in, we’ve got the space and time to do it. So yeah, some of those breakouts, you know, have had some people. Yeah, really exploring what it could mean to live in a post extracted as well, as well as bringing to light and things that are happening internationally. Craig example, someone from the Sudanese revolution. Supportive committee, sorry, has, yeah, has spoken to us and join those breakouts to tell us about, you know, Sudanese delegates that have come here, then the resource minister from Sudan, to make deals with the Australian government, which will directly increase gold mining in Sudan, and that has been, you know, impossible to protest over there, as well, as has, you know, a lot of like, underground and, like, very violent practices involved, that, you know, almost unreported on internationally. And so, yeah, you know, good to have people here informing us of those things, and, you know, gives a bit of context to what’s happening inside the building. And, yeah, we kind of just have created a bit of an imaginative space here, with the hope of, you know, uniting people from different groups and different interests to sort of imagine beyond beyond mining beyond extraction.

Andy 

One of the things that you’ve mentioned already, and that’s been a focus as well of the blockade iomart group is the greenwashing of mining companies. Have you seen much of that?

Jonah Shabtay 

Yeah, totally. I mean, you know, we haven’t directly engaged with many people from inside the building, because the barricades around the whole conference center, but we have seen from the agenda of the conference, as well as the companies in attendance and, and, you know, news articles that have come out this week, that, you know, there’s a huge focus on the transition. There’s a huge focus on carbon offsetting, which, as we know, is the Australian Government’s really convenient way of you know, perpetuating extraction, you know, with with a nice green guys over it. Yeah, and it really has nothing substantial to it. And pretty much you know, all the major companies in there, Adani, BHP MMG, who were down in the Tarkine, Fortescue Metals who over in the Pilbara as well as you know, Hunter Valley coal and, and the rest of them. Yeah, you know, most of them are engaged in these carbon offset schemes which the government of Australia actually offers those accreditation. And that makes it really hard to hold the individual companies accountable because As they’ve externalized, sort of the accreditation of those carbon offset schemes, and internationally, that’s actually been condemned. But in Australia, there’s no one really pushing back on that. So, yeah, that really complicates sort of the greenwashing facade that we’re trying to dismantle that. Yeah, you know, the direction of like Australian politics and Australian business is extraction, we know this. And there’s nothing happening in that conference that is trying to slow that down. It’s just making ways to speed it up and to, you know, Greenify it, but ultimately, that conference is still headed towards title extraction and total desecration of Australia. So pretty perfect.

Andy 

Yeah, it’s amazing. These companies, they, they’re the ones that profit in the first place off the destruction of our climate. And then they don’t even pay tax most of them as it’s come out in figures recently, but then, when it comes to, you know, climate adaptation, they just see it as another opportunity to put their hand out and get more money off the government. And that’s part of the marketing of transition and things like that is just a way of, you know, scamming more money for themselves.

Jonah Shabtay 

Totally. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, we see renewable grants and renewable sort of, you know, categorizations being given to things like, you know, wood chips, exports, and we, you know, we, yeah, as you say, it’s, it’s really just, yeah, you know, they can see that money there to be made, and they can see that protection is there and social licence is there in that in that image. And so that’s what they’re going for.

Andy 

All right, thanks very much. Jonah, I’ll let you get back to being hassled by cops telling Harvard. But um, I mean, what comes next? I mark will finish today. What’s next, I guess for blockade or marking for resisting fossil fuel?

Jonah Shabtay 

Yeah, I mean, you know, blockade IMARC, I guess, we’ll see where Sydney takes it, you know, like Sydney has a broad group of climate, you know, broad spectrum of climate groups. And, you know, we’ve seen a good turnout, you know, across the board here today. So, we’ll see what happens the next year, obviously, you know, we’re gonna have to monitor police behavior pretty strongly. And we’re also going to have to really engage with sort of civil rights groups and legal legal rights groups to, you know, help help defend the right to protest here. But you know, that just because they’ve moved state, that doesn’t mean that yeah, they’re gonna, they’re gonna get off the hook, like we’re still called the hassle for them as much as possible. Well, I guess what we’re trying to do here today is sort of build a bit of community connection and a bit of community strength in Sydney to gear up for the future conferences.

Andy 

All right. Thanks very much, Jonah (Shabtay).

Jonah Shabtay 

No worries Thanks, andy Have a good one.

Water moves New World Order rules to harbor change the pain this may order for sound waves shutdown graves dug deep water dirty like the police that flooded streets blood on the beach sand storms on the streets a man’s form can be transformed with the heat of the moment. We think our opponent is overseas but we must have wet Mother Nature’s ovaries it’s a cruel winter summer don’t know myself I say cream for all know as well and no one’s supposed to help that’s what I’m made for. I’m a made man but I am made though God’s gift to this Earth does what she prayed for they’ve been stable since Cain killed Abel.

beginning was the Word and then he made the lead made man and then came to slaughter slaughter slaughter everything was pleased voltage just showed up on the band The first the pupil contaminate the ocean not the wonder was length of four plugs for two liters that should be the vehicle for me go the volt consigo Can you can find me you Oh, the water used to be seen the wish weapons was fooled then we all be feared I wish narcotics was fruit. I got them apples in red and Nemesis since Genesis when no one should have fish that’s when good know how it is still it is they do the unthinkable why the same color was t that still didn’t treat purple subhabrata Fig wheel was probably up and never taught us prepare for World World War

Two one would know and balance fresh and saltwater way out of balance with this gulf iced water challenge ocean ain’t Joma chasse can live in in the gas lands or your water flow straight out of the faucet now by your water flow straight out of the faucet we’ve been in the pain of Mother Earth is a cost is a what is cracking with all this cracking. They go around and Release the Kraken trouble in the water used to mean that a shocking eat tonight you got a better chance of bumping in the shark Kesha on Park cretin gorilla monsoon tracks for Jesus to talk on the seas to disease for Jesus to walk on Gila Mother Earth because he weighed too big for us to put chopped out good music.

Andy 

Here on four triple Zed 102.1 F M. paradigm shift is the name of the show that just there was common featuring and get ready. If you’re taking notes at home. Malik Yusef, Kumasi, Aaron Fresh, Choklate & Laci Kay on that track, which is called trouble in the water. Many communities around the world trying to protect their water from the fossil fuel industry and other forms of mining and destructive industries as well. As many people have been saying many of the companies that are at our mark, the international mining and resource company conference that is currently happening in Sydney, are the companies responsible for that and there’s many people around the world who have been trying to resist it. And one of the things that blockade II Mark has tried to do which, or I go further I will say before that interview was speaking with Jonah Shabtai, who is down there in Sydney as part of blockade armor. But in recent years, one of the things that group has been trying to do is join together people around the world who are resisting extractivism and the destruction of our planet for the sake of the wealth of a few companies. And so I spoke to Marisol Salinas, who is part of blockade IMR about some of that solidarity work they’ve done with people in different parts of the world. They last week, they organize their own counter conference to the iMac which they called Life or death. A conference of imagining talking about the issues of extractivism and imagining a different future. Let’s have a listen to Marisol to find out more. You are part of blockade II mark and organization that over the last few years has been organizing mostly in Nam Melbourne. Can you tell us a bit about I mean, what blockade iron mark is and what it’s done in the last few years.

Marisol Salinas 

Blocking IMARC is, as you mentioned, is it’s not an organization is a group of individuals. Group parties, you know, independent people who decided to get together to talk about it, IMARC, and why it was important to start denouncing, you know, this national meeting is happening or international meetings happening here in Australia, by them in Melbourne. Because in Latin America and in Asia Pacific with these companies, mainly mining companies, what they’re doing is horrible. So they’re creating a lot of displacement of Texans, indigenous communities. There are polluting the rivers. They’re destroying basically our environment. So that was one of the main reasons, these companies always come with the big lie that they are bringing jobs and prosperity to the areas where the mining is going to be, but is totally the opposite. And no one talks about that. So that that was the original idea why so many people decided to get together and start organizing.

Andy 

And that’s been a big focus isn’t it is joining up with international movements against mining and linking them to things happening in Australia?

Marisol Salinas 

That’s correct. This is an international movement

Andy 

to respond to the international minerals and resource conference, I guess.

Marisol Salinas 

Yeah, it is a different organizations all around the world who are already doing this, but they are a the affected communities, you know, the ones are already their property or their land was where the mine is at the moment. So they’re the one organizing campaigning, and there is an international movement to let everyone knows what’s going on. Why is important, you know, for this meeting not to happen. Because, you know, this meeting is not just mining companies who come to the meeting. Also, any other business who profit from mining could be the companies who make the closing, you know, for the miners, you know, the food, anything, anything that has to do with mining, those are the companies who come to these international meetings. And the worst part is that they always come with a plan. You know, all right, this is one part of Asia, or Latin America, that is no mine in there, we can do something about it. Let’s talk to the government, let’s look into the international agreements, you know, if there is an international agreement, it is going to be easy for us to go in. And to start a business. In Latin America, and in Asia Pacific, there is no strong regulations. So for these companies, it’s very easy to get in an auto response when the raise environmental disasters, you know, as we have seen, you know, what happened in Brazil, will happen in Chile. Yeah, so totally different story when these mining companies start working in other continents.

Andy 

So in recent years, the iMac conference has happened in Melbourne, and there’s been a big physical presence there to resist it. Can you tell us a bit about in recent years, what that’s looked like,

Marisol Salinas 

Look, before the v4 COVID. Yeah, they’re the actions they will be. So as I mentioned before, people from all the different agency know, they were coming, because this is something that affects everyone. So yeah, there were massive movements. Also, we organize conferences, you know, online, and also the persons were local, indigenous here in Australia affected by mining, you know, also they had the opportunity to come and talk about what’s happening here in Australia, in their community. So I think it is an a strong moment. But there is already other organizations, environmentalists, organizations here in Australia, you know, highlighting issues, you know, that uranium mining, or the nuclear waste, you know, is doing here in Australia. So, what we did we invite all those ones who are already doing this job to join and be part of this announcing.

Andy 

And this year, I mark moved to Sydney. Some people say that they did it because of the protests that have happened in Melbourne in recent years. And it’s been effective I guess, in having less of a protest there, thanks largely to New South Wales Police. But you still blockade IMAX door organized, alternative gathering international post extractivism gathering. Can you tell us about that event and what happened there?

Marisol Salinas 

Oh, we already did. We had a conference. There have been it was one day online one day, face to face here in Melbourne. Again, we invited all those communities affected by mining. So they were talking about their stories. You know how many people have died or contamination communities don’t have drinkable water animals because of the mining. So they have to wait for the track who comes once a week with water for them to be able to have drinkable water. So all those experiences, you know, coming from Asia Pacific, Latin America and one particular community here in Australia. Yeah, we had that conference, it was pretty interesting, you know, the, the attendance, and how many people wanted to know, more wanted documents, you know. So I think yes, we will continue campaigning, then announcing, and if they move to this a wells, and that somehow will not allow us to organize as we were doing here, I’m sure that there is a lot of other organizations in this world who will take this struggle. And, of course, we will be there supporting, and we will continue here in Victoria, organizing the conference, especially the online part to make sure we are still give the opportunity and voices, you know, to the voiceless. Because that’s what it is, you know, people are affected in other parts of the continent, when there is no free media, there is no respect to the environment, where there is a conflict or a real movement. And so the government and mining companies can do whatever they want, you know, at least they will have a voice in this online conference, people will know. And the idea is to distribute all the recordings, you know, that we can organize so people can hear the stories and make a decision, you know, is that okay? That I’m here having such a good life? You know, in the meantime, other people, you know, are suffering, you know, and I’m responsible for that. Do I have any responsibility? I think it’s important, you know, just to make people think.

Andy 

And one of the other things that bucket omark has tried to do in these conferences, and I guess a bit in blinking together in solidarity with people in different countries that does a little bit in itself, but also trying to imagine a future beyond the extractive industry. What do you think that’s important?

Marisol Salinas 

Oh, definitely, for what I already mentioned to you, you know, we all want to live in peace and we all want to enjoy you know, beautiful fresh air, drink water, you come into your house and you have water to drink, no contamination. So of course, we are not just for the scene to the nouns, this is also about making people think about that there is a better future you know, and definitely we are going to continue with other groups here building that new future.

Andy 

Alright, thanks Marisol (Salinas). So, if people are interested in finding out more about blockade iron mark in the conference and things like that, how can they do that?

Marisol Salinas 

They just need to go or you know, look for placate IMARC, they will find the webpage and information and there is some contact details of that contact emails where they can send an email if they want to know more if they want to join because as you said, you know, this is a this is a movement that is in the beginning stage. So this is just the beginning

Andy 

Okay, thanks very much Marisol

Marisol Salinas 

thanks for your cover

Rivermouth 

so what’s an island wide Brown and crowded with ancestor spirits some might look sounded but couldn’t hear it shouting, singing they just bulldozed it flat brought in Fox and cast and built a nation on the back of slave labor and genocide morality landslide pulling into the middle of an empty country when even applying this century could see that it was occupied. We made a habit of scratching the Earth’s surface, sold sacred soil to fill spoiled purses our best getting deeper leap into oblivion digging into skin pillar chin now we’re living in sin bitumen bandaid that won’t heal bending nerve endings we’ve got how to feel coast to coast mine in the land of slaves. Australia is a nation that’s digging its own grave digging it, digging it up. Gonna make another hole doesn’t do any minerals, uranium and Old stole this land now we’ve sold it so lost control of consumption This is how we roll to get up OpenCart culture vultures on the grass throw stones willy nilly but those walls are glass who might have pontificate shouting down the town even the metal in this microphone came out of the ground were short sighted hiding our faces in the sand fake tan city dwellers turned our backs on the land. Take the money now ignore long term costs 50 years down the line we’ll admit what we’ve lost. They say it can’t last forever. They call it another flawed endeavor. fatherland becomes a dust bowl. A stable economy can’t be built on coal. Scroll down, read the fine print and take control don’t believe and when they tell you what’s the minimal toll maintain status quo their ultimate goal? Why learn to think when you can learn to dig a hole?

Rivermouth 

Somewhere along the line we stopped making progress started making junk going through the process of chucking out old stuff and digging up more when we should have been reusing what we dug up before we are swollen ticks the kind that cause paralysis crawling across the skin of the colon hyperbole. I call it accurate analysis Gladstone’s stuck in flight for all where it works, but it creates jobs blindfolded they share as though nothing that makes jobs could ever be a bad idea Advance Australia Fair Advance Australia consumptions culture agricultural failure, we don’t need food we can just eat the dust but Sunday when the mining trucks Ross died trust will realize the unwise path we’ve taken when the crops are when the earth starts shaking dig it up to get up gonna make another hole doesn’t daddy minerals, uranium and coal stole this land now we’ve sold it sold us control of consumption. This is how he rolls it up.

Andy 

On the paradigm shift on four triple Zed, 102.1 FM, that song you just heard there was rivermouth with dig it up a bit of an older one from them. Of course, voice there of Jonathan Sriraganathan If I did that justice to his full name as he is very to himself now excellent contributor to local politics in Brisbane. Before then I was speaking with Marisol Salinas, from blockade II Mark about linking up internationally making the resistance to mining industry multinational, just as the mining industry itself is multinational. And they were organizing at counter conference to the international mining and resources conference last week. And I did mention earlier in the show, one of the most notable things about iMac this week is that we’ve seen an incredible level of police intimidation of protesters. So if you listen to the parachutes a few weeks ago, and if you didn’t, this is the bit where I remind you that on the fortable Zed website, you can go back and listen to old episodes of your favorite shows, including a paradigm shift. And so if you get to the paradigm shift page on the website, and in the little calendar bit, go back a few weeks, you’ll find a show talking about restrictions on protests, the repression and protest in this country, Victoria and Tasmania, both bringing in new anti protest laws and New South Wales as well. Well, and you said well, cops took it to another level in the last couple of weeks in preemptively stopping people from going to process by turning up at people’s houses including Jonah who we interviewed earlier in the show, and telling them all the things that might happen to them if they come to buy, iMac and try to do any disruptive protests. It’s pretty remarkable repression of basic civil liberties, I guess, to have police turn up the door, but also the recognition of the importance of protests in our society for democracy to counter the power of these big companies who make their profits off destroying our planet. We’re in a climate crisis. And we need a protest right to force change because the free market and our governments are not doing an adequate job at reining in the destructive power of the mining industry. And that’s where we need ordinary people to have levers for change, have the ability to influence our society and protest is how we do that and disruptive forms of protest is a proven effective way. So bit of a worry then that the New South Wales Government has been so keen to crush it both blockade Australia protests earlier this year and blockade Iraq this week, which are to say, Now, the reason that they were so harsh on it is because police think that it’s the same group organizing blockade Australian blackout iMac, which is not blockade iMac has existed for like five years did, and they could have figured that out with a little Google search. But instead, they sent hundreds of cops out across the country to knock on people’s doors and threaten them. Anyway, I spoke to Anastasia Reddy. EBSCO, who is a lawyer in Sydney and part of Sydney are legal observers about everything that’s been going on. Let’s have a listen.

Anastasia Radievska 

I’m Anastasia from legal observers New South Wales. We’re a grassroots collective of individuals who are interested in police accountability in relation to the policing of protest. And we’ve been involved with legal support for a number of protests and protest groups over the last couple of years.

Andy 

As and you’ve certainly been kept busy in the recent months in the lead up to the iron Mark mining conference in Sydney. Can you tell us a bit about what’s happened in terms of policing of those protests?

Anastasia Radievska 

Yeah, so we’ve had a somewhat unexpected, I suppose, escalation in relation to the pacing of this particular protest has been done about a week ago, we began to get reports trickling in from from Victoria and from around New South Wales of activists being visited in their homes by police asking them about their intention to participate in in IMAK protests, telling them certain things about the legality of protesting without a permit from police, which were untrue. And since then, we’ve had about 40 people in total all over the country from Queensland, to the AC T to Victorian New South Wales visited so we haven’t really seen this kind of national door knocking operation before from the police. And it’s something that since the June protests by blockade Australia, we did have door knocking happening within Sydney, but we haven’t seen it spread out to this national scale. And with police, sort of, even in Queensland and Victoria telling activists about New South Wales legislation so quiet, you know, a lot of a lot of national cooperation between the different police forces and seeming to be quite essentially coordinating campaign of intimidation.

Andy 

So it’s just been police turning up at people’s house, no warrant or anything, but just to tell them not to come to the protest, basically, or warn them what might happen if they

Anastasia Radievska 

do. That’s right. That’s been part of it. And then in the last couple of days, we’ve also seen a number of searches carried out on vehicles of individuals suspected to be connected to protest activity. That suspicion has often been on quite spurious grounds. We had a report of somebody today, who works near the convention center in Darling Harbour where this conference is going to waiting to go into work and was had their bag searched by police on suspicion of being a protest to seemingly just because they were a young person in the area. We’ve had also police defecting cars of activists on very spurious grounds and a number of yes searches of cars such as or belongings for articles related to protest activities, such as banners, for example. So yeah, quite concerning developments there.

Andy 

And LinkedIn with this as well. You mentioned blockade Australia protests that there’s a number of people still on extremely punitive bail conditions, with a number of restrictions on their movement and association and I think there’s been this has come up again, we’ve seen, I believe people arrested who for breach of bail, because they had things that made it look like they might be going to a protest.

Anastasia Radievska 

Yeah, that’s right. Well, we had reports of two people pulled over yesterday in the sort of Sydney region, and had their costs searched on the basis of checking their compliance with bail conditions from the June protests, and one of the things was alleged that they had, but they had broken a condition of not having more than one phone, which is one of the conditions that was imposed, there were a number of conditions like not using encrypted apps not possessing, or the one mobile phone essentially to stop people from communicating with people to organize protests. So one person actually spent a night in custody because police found or alleged that they found a second phone charger and other persons spent time in custody for using encrypted encrypted apps. So yeah, we’ve had a number of people and and just tonight, we’ve had another report of a person who has been arrested in Sydney for breach of bail after being picked up in the city. We’re not clear what the circumstances of that are exactly. But yet it seems to be escalating as we get closer and closer to Friday, which is the last day of the conference.

Andy 

So this is just total harassment of people who have been involved in protests with no evidence that they are involved in anything to do with IMR. I guess the question is, how legal Is it a police allowed to do this?

Anastasia Radievska 

Yeah, that’s that’s a really interesting question. Unfortunately, as is often the case, with policing, they have a wide scope for discretion in relation to when they carry out searches, they are meant to have a reasonable suspicion that you have an article in your possession that you’re going to use in the commission of what’s called an indictable offense. So an offence punishable by more than two years, under the new anti protest laws in New South Wales, obstructing traffic during a protest or even obstructing pedestrians is punishable by two years or more. So could potentially fall under that definition. But in terms of the reasonable suspicion criterion, as I said earlier, police have just recently searched somebody just for being in an area and looking as if they could be a protester. So I’m not sure that that meets that definition. The difficulty with a lot of this is that you have to actually bring a case to have all of these police assumptions tested. And a lot of people don’t have the resources or even desire to engage with the legal system in that way. So essentially, unless there is public outcry, and some push towards public accountability, many of these overreaches do go unchallenged, which is why we’re working on getting, you know, more politicians to speak up about it getting New South Wales labor, to speak up about it as well. But having supported these laws going through Parliament, and that’s part of, you know, pushing back against police misusing their discretion in this way that does seem to be pushing the bounds of legality.

Andy 

It seems to be a trend in New South Wales. I remember last year, the Police Chief Mike fuller saying that he was going to use bizarre laws about intent to injure or kill against protesters, which is obviously, you know, a spurious use of that law and were thrown out in court. This year, we’ve seen these bail conditions used. And now this is this a trend in New South Wales that it has been escalating?

Anastasia Radievska 

Yeah, I think I think it is, I think part of it is that as the climate crisis is escalating, and our awareness of how far away we are from doing what we need to do on it, is escalating, protests is escalating. And the state is responding to those escalations because they’re aware that, you know, this degree of dissent is dangerous, especially when, you know, the Federal Labor government is trying to sell itself as a champion of climate change. So over the last year, we have seen, you know, new anti protest laws, totally oversized, you know, 25 year, penalties invoked, although that, you know, those charges were ultimately dropped by police. A lot of it seems to be an intimidation campaign, a sort of proactive, making people reconsider engaging in any protests that’s not kind of approved by the state are entirely within the boundaries of what the state finds acceptable. And that’s part of why these visits are so concerning, because despite the police insistence that they’re just information giving or community relations visits, they do have an intimidatory effect, and they’re part of this on Going escalation of the kinds of penalties that frankly, I think most people thought that we wouldn’t see, in Australia, you know, two years jail for obstructing a pedestrian trying to get into a railway station, for example. I mean, it doesn’t sound like the kind of thing that most people would find acceptable in the community. But unfortunately, that’s where we’ve ended up right now.

Andy 

Well, yes, you mentioned that we are in a climate crisis. And obviously, we need protests to force change that to protect our planet. We also need protests as a basic democratic, right, a safeguard against authoritarianism. What do we do to push back against these laws?

Anastasia Radievska 

Yeah, that’s a really important question. I think part of it is re valorizing protest as as a mode of democratic participation. I think the funny thing about protest is that most of the things that we consider just the most basic rights that we have have been one through protest, but we don’t think of them in that way, because they become immediately normalized. And all the dissent that led to their institution has forgotten, you know, the eight hour work day of voting for women land rights for First Nations people. I think part of it has to be a reawakening of the public consciousness as to the importance of protests for the things that they enjoy in their day to day life and the things that they even take for granted. And I think opening up, you know, the scope for who can participate in protests and who we’re reaching out to, when we are protesting using that communal language, that this is actually a communal capacity that we need to protect that matters for all of us, I think is really important. And it’s been great to see unions, speaking up more about how disruptive protest is particularly important to workers rights, and that solidarity protests are part of that, despite the attempts at the anti protest laws to sort of divide environmental protesters from from unionists and from working class protesters. So part of it is finding that shared ground of protest being a resource that we can all get behind and benefit from. And part of it is also, you know, continuing to have public outcry when these things happen, not letting them become normalized. I think it’s very easy to go, Oh, yes. Well, you know, well, this happened last month. So it’s the same old story. I think it’s important to continue speaking out about it to really realizing how far away we are from where we should be in terms of democratic liberties in New South Wales and in Australia. And really putting pressure on the parties that do have the capacity to change this. Ultimately, we need to push back against this being law, the anti protest laws in New South Wales, we need to be able to create legislative change. Engaging in some of that reformism, I think while limited on its own is pot is really important part of a broader strategy of creating the political space for broad protest participation. So I would hope that everybody who is able to engage in those campaigns in the capacity that they have, whether that’s through something as simple as signing a petition or turning up to, to the protests that are happening in your area, those are all important ways.

Andy 

Okay, so if people are interested in finding out more about what’s happened in the last week or so or being part of a campaign, how can they do that? They do that.

Anastasia Radievska 

Yeah, so we Twitter legals, we’ve been post saying quite a bit about every thing that’s going on about so recommend following the council, South Wales council for civil liberties. We will have ways for people to get to relevant decision makers, etc. Yeah, just stay in touch and what’s going on and shit happening in Australia. So sharing, you know, even talking to your relatives about it, honestly, someone being exposed to something they might not have been exposed to before to talk about it with people, you know, raise it as an issue. I think that does a lot to sort of change the social consciousness

Andy 

on it. Okay, thanks very much, Anastasia.

Anastasia Radievska 

Thank you, Andy.

Andy 

That is Anastasia Radievska  they’re speaking to the paradigm shift about the repression of protests that’s happened in the last few weeks in New South Wales, and it is part of a trend across the country. And as Anastasia points out there, it doesn’t just affect the few people who get cops turning up at their house when the right to protest is under attack. It affects us all and people in the future as well who have to inherit a society where mining companies were allowed to ride roughshod over our democratic rights to further their own profits, because that’s the reality of what happens when we don’t have the power to push back as ordinary people is that those who do have the power mining companies like those at IMARC today who have got all kinds of politicians and public servants and things like that coming, they’re giving them their spiels. They’re promising all kinds of kickbacks, who knows? And it’ll end up that our society is given over to people who are just in it to make a buck out of our planet. So join the protests. That’s what I say. support those people like the people who have been protesting outside Omar today because we need it. We are in a very dire situation environmentally, and it’s only people like you and me who are gonna be able to fix it getting together and doing what we can. That’s about all we have time for on the paradigm shift. Stay tuned next week. I’ll be back with more. Thanks very much, Rachel from Daylesford for signing up as a fortune was dead subscriber Good on you keeping community radio on the air. And you could do that too. If you’re listening at home and you’re not a subscriber to this fine radio station. Well, what are you waiting for? Get on the for triple Zed website like Rachel and sign up and help keep independent media on the air. I’m gonna go out with one last song, a new one from instrumental violin player from over in Perth, Madeline Antoine This one’s Elegy for a burning world. See you next week.

Nablus – the lion’s den

God gave Noah the rainbow sign. No more water, the fire next time!” – James Baldwin, in The Fire Next Time.

It is starting to get cold in Nablus. There are fires all around. At night, smoke palls over the city. The old city of Nablus in Palestine is under curfew. Residents have reported the murder of a number of young men and the abduction of others. It is difficult for the Israelis to get their tanks and armoured vehicles down the narrow streets. In nearby village of Nabi Saleh, a young man, Qusay al-Tamimi, darts out with a pistol in his hand. He is shot dead, in the legs and in the stomach. Is Qusay the brother of Ahed Tamimi, whose father once said: ‘my children have known only a life of checkpoints, identity papers, detentions, house demolitions, intimidation, humiliation and violence.

Another Palestinian family in Nablus is in shock. The mother has already lost a son and a husband to Israeli shelling. The noise of gunfights surround their apartment. Her second husband is still suffering wounds from his youth requiring metal plates in his legs. His mind is out of control having been put in detention time and again. His brother-in-law in Australia managed to convince the Senator for Queensland, Claire Moore, to seek help in the Australian parliament. Then Foreign Minister, Bob Carr, put in a word for the detainees when last in Tel Aviv. That was years ago.

This time around, will Penny Wong do the same? The foreign minister made a step in the right direction by refusing to recognise Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, rescinding the support of the previous Morrison government.

Meanwhile despite this escalation of murders abductions, military raids and settler violence, the ABC is silent. Usually the journos wait and if the news abroad sparks an outrage that last for days, only then will they report the latest Israeli violence in the occupied territories. Or remain silent until they could be accused of bias.

The ABC reported the massacre at Bucha Ukraine but little is heard of the massacres of Palestinians in Nablus and Jenin on the West Bank, in Gaza, and in Sabra and Shatilla in Beirut. How long will they wait? The ABC will probably not report this latest incident, unless of course Penny Wong wants to get into the fray. But Penny will probably wait too. Our foreign minister already has the Israelis offside.

Meanwhile the Israeli blockade of Nablus is in its eight day. Here is a report from a journalist on the ground, Nida Ibrahim wearing a button on her chest of her murdered colleague, Shireen

Israeli forces continue blockade of Nablus for eighth day

Nida Ibrahim reporting from the Israeli blockade of Nablus

Wed, Oct 26, 2022

Father 

Baby Elisa has spent nearly half of her life at this Israeli checkpoint. Born in a Nablus hospital late on Monday, her parents are trying to bring her home to qalqilya city, a trip that often takes around 40 minutes. But it’s been hours due to an Israeli blockade imposed on Nablus more than a week ago.

Father 

The baby has a little difficulty breathing, so we want to take her to an incubator. Eileen is one of hundreds trying to leave Nablus through this checkpoint, which is the only way out.

Truck driver 

I’ve been waiting for more than one and a half hours. I won’t make any profit. The gas is expensive, and I’m wasting it on the roads.

Nida Ibrahim

Israel says the siege aims to prevent the growing number of gun attacks. The Israeli army told Al Jazeera more than 170 have been carried out so far this year. An armed group in Nablus called the lion’s den has claimed responsibility for several attacks in recent weeks, and Israeli soldier was killed in one drive by shooting last week. The Israeli policy of collective punishment is not new. For decades, Israel has been demolishing Palestinian homes, blocking roads and imposing measures against whole communities and neighborhoods.

Palestinians say they’re being killed, detained and their lives are getting more difficult. All under the pretext of security. Israeli officials believe the blockade will put pressure on Palestinians to abandon arms and deter them from carrying out attacks. While the Palestinian Authority has succeeded in recruiting some fighters to its ranks, others say, only a political solution will end the need for armed groups. General dissatisfaction with the Palestinian Authority has led to many people supporting them despite the growing restrictions.

Hassan Ayyoub – political scientist

It’s a reaction that people would give legitimacy and give support to any group to any person to any faction if you want, that may come out and show that resilience that we missed for so so so many, many, many, many years.

Nida Ibrahim

Those negotiations and promises of independence and statehood have been going on for decades. And that means baby Eileen and her fellow Palestinians could be looking at a lifetime of waiting. Nida Ibrahim Al Jazeera the occupied West Bank

Reference

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/25/at-least-three-palestinians-killed-in-israeli-raids-on-nablus

Dream Jobs

I wish to express solidarity with the striking members of my former union, the National Tertiary Education Union.

I worked and studied at the University of Queensland (UQ) from 1967 till 1977. I was employed by various departments (Vet Science (Dept of Parasitology), Medicine (School of Anatomy), Psychology, and Zoology, both as a full time and casual non-academic worker. Later, about 2004-5 I was employed at Queensland University of Technology as a typesetter.

A number of people have told me that they regarded their employment at University, a dream job, such is their dedication to their area of teaching and/or research.

Back in the 60s I was a member of the Technical and Laboratory Staffing Association (T.A.L.S.A.) and was very poorly paid (I started on $27 per week in 1967 as a laboratory cadet. The following year this was raised to $32 per week). The average earnings for a week’s work in 1965-66 was $57 and minimum wages for women were set around 30 per cent lower than for men.

I wish to acknowledge the work done by my old union, TALSA (I was a financial member from 1968 – 1975) to improve our wages and entitlements. They struggled against the discriminatory policies of the University of Queensland senate. There was an historic moment in that struggle on International Women’s Day 1973. I quote from an unsigned article ‘Senate rejects Submission‘ in 2.4.73 edition of Semper Floreat, the UQ Student Union newspaper:

Discrimination against women laboratory staff at UQ
Subsequent to a letter sent out to all 1,800 non-academic. staff in the 1st week of March 1973, a lunch time meeting on 6th March was hurriedly convened by the Technical and Laboratory Staff Association inviting all non academics to attend. The need for such a meeting was expedited by the fact that the proposals put forward by Mr. Richie, Deputy Vice Chancellor (Fabric of Finance) were to go before the Senate for approval on 8th March (International Women’s Day).

On the 6th March, Mr. Richie was confronted by over 200 angry non academics who fired many pertinent questions al him. This meeting should go down in the history of the University as it is the first of any significant size consisting of members of several unions and professional· organisations to assemble in protest of an intended administrative action that of the introduction of compulsory superannuation, for all non-academic staff members. Protesting particularly against the  discriminatory nature for favouring males at the  expense of female members.” – Semper Floreat, Volume 43 Number 4.  Published Uni. or Qld. Union, 2.4.73.

Historic stop work protest at University of Queensland by non-academic staff

The union forced the Senate of the University to reject the new super scheme because it discriminated against the large number of women employed in the labs at Uni.

Ian Curr
22 Oct 2022
podcasts @ https://4pr-voice-of-the-people.com/
‘… philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it …’ – Marx (1845)

Solidarity with NTEU Strike!

Enemies

The co-opting of history to suit people’s own ideas is not new … on the labour side as well as on the bosses side. I have fought against this all my life. For example Tom Zubryki made a film about the 1985 SEQEB dispute called ‘Friends & Enemies‘ but the reality was the strike committee led by Bernie Neville, in the end, only had enemies.

Workers at Swanbank Power Station voted to lift the ban (of turning off the power) on the recommendation of their union [Municipal Officers Association (MOA)] after leaders of that union met with Joh Bjelke-Petersen. They lifted the bans after being told by their union that, if they did, the SEQEB linesmen would get their jobs back with no recriminations. It was only after they lifted the ban that they realised that they had been mislead by their union.” – Neil Andrew Frost

Those enemies were the governments of Petersen and Hawke, the media, the bosses, the ACTU led by Simon Crean, the Electrical Trades Union in Queensland led by Neal Kane, and even sections of the Left kept telling the workers that they were defeated.

The Hope of the World
The play, Errol O’Neill wrote, called ‘The Hope of the World‘ had a final scene that depicted the officials and the strike committee standing arm-in-arm singing ‘Solidarity Forever‘ when, in reality, by their own admission, the Trades and Labour Council (TLC) and Electrical Trades Union (ETU) officials sold out their own union members in order to preserve the Hawke government’s ‘Prices and Income Accord‘.

Ian Curr
21 Oct 2022

Reference: ‘The Hope of the World‘ – a play about trade unions and the moral dilemmas of the left during the Bjelke-Petersen era: Produced by QTC, 1996; Newcastle Rep, 1999.

Friends and Enemies‘ by Tom Zubryki

Song: ‘Working Class Hero‘ by John Lennon

Paradigm Shift: Disrupt Land Forces

Paradigm Shift Andy & guests Friday 12:00 pm – 1:00 pm

Tune in to the Paradigm Shift on 4ZZZ 102.1fm, Fridays at noon. We challenge the assumptions of our current society, to resist oppression

30 September, 2022

On today’s show we do one last preview show about Disrupt Land Forces – which began last night with two people arrested and half the cops of Brisbane protecting vehicles entering the convention centre. I chat about that and also speak to Matilda Byrne about lethal autonomous weapons – the next deadly technological warfare development.

https://4zzz.org.au/program/paradigm-shift

Playlist
Combat Wombat – Star wars
Anomie – Predator drones over Yemen
Edwin Starr – War
Racerage – Eat the rich
Franz James – Masters of war

Transcript

 Paradigm Shift – Disrupt Land Forces

Fri, Sep 30, 2022 1:46PM • 59:22

SUMMARY KEYWORDS weapons, people, lethal autonomous, autonomous weapons, ai, convention center, big, war, guess, australia, target, land, forces, warfare, facial recognition, Jagera, military, paradigm shift, talking, countries

SPEAKERS
Andy and Guests

Andy:   Welcome to the paradigm shift on 4ZZZ where we challenge the assumptions of our current society to resist oppression and investigate alternative ways of living for a world based on justice, solidarity and sustainability. On today’s show, we’re gonna be talking about a disrupt land forces one more time before, it all happens, although it did start last night. If you’re a regular listener to the paradigm shift, then over recent weeks, you probably would have heard me talking about the land forces weapons convention that is happening in Brisbane at the convention center next week. And you will also have heard that there’s a group of people organizing to try to disrupt it. Disrupt land forces is the name of the event. And it’s all happening this week. There’s lots of different events which I’ll speak about over the course of the show. But last night, the first disruption occurred, the first arrests, two young women jumping up on top of a vehicle carrying autonomous military vehicle a little. I don’t know what you caught like a land drone, basically.

Somebody else who knew that disrupt land force was coming up with a police of Brisbane who were stationed all around the convention center trying to shepherd these weapons and things into the convention center. And we’re running convoys through the city if you last night would late last night, we’re driving through the city and had a convoy of police guiding a truck scream past you with sirens on and motorbikes on each side. Well, that was the police protecting the interests of the weapons industry to make sure that they could get into the convention center without the people of Brisbane getting in the way. And that’s where that’s where we’re living in where the state government is a major sponsor of the Land Forces. Of course they are in the convention center and they also run the police and so the our friendly coppers who are meant to keep us all safe are sent out to protect the the weapons industry from a few protesters who all they want to do is jump up on top of a tank and stop it from getting into the convention center for a while.

Police arrest protesters locked onto an Autonomous Vehicle.

But yes, we’ll hear much more about the show. I also I’m going to talk about autonomous weapons the the ‘hunter wolf’ little thing that our cloud and ash jumped on top of is autonomous. Not a weapon but a military vehicle. But there’s well it’s a droids guided I think by people but it is of great concern. The technological developments happening around lethal autonomous weapons. And so I speak I speak with Matilda Byrne from safe ground who ever campaign part of a global campaign called Stop killer robots trying to stop lethal autonomous weapons. So that’s what’s coming up and we might even chat a bit with mighty Branigan About militarism and the environment if I get time to fit it in, and we’ll play some great antiwar songs as well. To start us off though, I’m going to play a little clip of cloud and ash to brave young women who were arrested yesterday afternoon. They’re still in custody now hopefully, in court soon. And this is what they had to say when they disrupted land forces.

 Hi, everyone, its Cloud and Ash here.

 We’ve just stopped this piece of machinery death machinery from going to the Convention Center in South Brisbane for of the land forces Expo.

 We’re standing in solidarity with the First Nations people of this land. And with those in the Northern Territory, who are currently calling for a ceasefire to disarm the police in their communities, First Nations peoples were the first to experience militarized violence on this continent, and they’re still the most victimized by it today, here and all across the globe.

 It’s not hard to see why we are standing here today on top of this machinery in front of this expo, where the machines are designed purely to kill and disrupt these weapons, destroy lives, homes and entire ecosystems.

 When we’re at a crossroad for humanity, we’re on the breakdown of a climate and societal collapse. We cannot afford the division that this expo promotes. We cannot afford to fight. We cannot afford to destroy any more. We need to turn all resources and minds to equity and sustainability, wars pollution of our minds, our relationships. And yes, the military machine is burning our home directly with these weapons and through the thirst and consumption of fossil fuels. The military oppresses culture takes land that is not for taking by force, by fear, leaving vulnerable people to pick up their lives in rubble.

 That is, cloud and ash, who yesterday jumped on top of an EP Hunter Wolf is the name of the machine. There’s all kinds of bizarre military machinery and with all with very strange names, brand names and things like that.

 And offense to wolves, really, who wonderful creatures who don’t need military vehicles being named after them. But then again, there’s so many things like that. One of the big displays, of course, will be Boeing talking about their Apache helicopter, which I’m sure the native Apache people have the US who tried to defend their country from being invaded by what became the US military weren’t aren’t that keen on that particular piece of equipment being named after them either.   But bizarre branding is part of what land forces does, and trying to unveil, unveil what really goes on there and talk about, like Cloud and ash then did about the environmental cost about the cost on First Nations people around the world of militarism. And you know, where these guns end up and who they end up getting used on is part of the reason to protest. And so that is why, all this week, people will be disrupting land forces. Again, there’s a big program or event that starts tonight with a ceremonial fire and welcome the country at Musgrave Park. A lot of the events we focused out of Jagera Hall This Week, and they’ll be the land force convention itself runs from Tuesday to Thursday next week. So we’ll be there at the convention center causing a ruckus but there’ll be workshops and things over the weekend and a concert on Saturday night at Jagera hall where you’ll be able to catch some great performers, including  the one of the stars of this song. This is a classic Ozzy protest tune from combat wombat and Izzy Brown, whose voice you will hear on this song we’ll be performing at Jagera Hall on Saturday night say get down and join the party Join the Resistance.

 Defense Minister of Australia Robert Hill says the government is continuing to talk to the US about Australia developing a missile defense system. Earlier this year the government revealed it was considering whether a shield could be put in place to protect Australia against a possible missile attacks.

 The Empire Strikes Back war is terrorism. Star Wars. The Empire Strikes Back war is terrorism. Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back. Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back to attack for what’s it called to lose out on the ego of the present days. And the residence of the Pentagon’s military defense case turned against on Nevada by the story of an Arab with a pen not prepared to take his own life. And everybody’s going to end up paying free either by capitalist guy into another war to score points on the magic nano ray scoreboard for those who can afford to buy fine we feel this talk another deal size war in on CNN again showdown of the lowdown 30 Round versus the team is all that intersection and writing shots of the emperor has no clothes there’s no denying. Let’s take the power back. Without the flowers crap these motherfuckers got me ready to snap and they only got their own back we take our own back or see fantasy as our dignities attack, where you want to end up the first place or last left suffocating as their rocket ship. No life on Mars but none here either a global Holocaust as they glide through the ether. I’m a believer realist and truth seeker. Knowledge is power as he pumps through the speaker dismissal of a morally bankrupt leader is needed because identities lie bleeding. Was The Empire Strikes Back or is terrorism Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back? Or is terrorism?

A conspiracy? It might be it’s hard to say got a fixture at the end of the media.

 On the television, no clarity of vision is this world war three is this a reality? We’re living in given in killing each other?

We learn from Lost arms crimes against humanity secretly exploiting the minority creating daggers for revenge justification to avenge race war religious war did they tell you what you’re fighting for? You seem to have forgotten Star Wars that’s in question no more guessing tired of being ignored the shadow definitely flexing undealt with making the world like shoot ’em up Western in the madness laden session of a Christian then the workers with no lesson from the past we passed carpet bombed and asked what do they hate us and make us escape nuts bashed and crashed and smashed them as friends to help us in our task where we’ve been sending men to end all the senses bringing the cream of militant to distinguish the innocent premises the Nemesis is just the must send him enough trucks tanks missiles abrupt drop bombs to this nothing new rounds real weapons and in the best tanks trucks this isn’t such drop bombs to there’s nothing new round to blow up drop bombs to this no one leopard Friends Meeting us planet saving obviously angered America’s rights as constitution gets mangled daily operation as a compensated spray verbal Agent Orange if you get in their way pain in forms of back the bending of rules when false type power their swords in the cruel nothing new this Christian empire finds that Jesus was indeed born in Palestine remind remind remind yourself that history is written by the man with well but he is passionless next to those who felt the rough pan corrupt man has tell where’s the next target civilian market pursue those goals and from the families that pocket the whole scars filled with immense darkness where’s the love is it too much to ask this genealogy boo like attack seeks to religious fundamentalists love to argue or any allergy boo like attack sex to politician them know to argue Australia all the brave men and women around the globe watching last two  days today’s world  world peace  World Peace  world  peace  that he’s combat one back there. That one goes out to ollie very dedicated paradigm shift listener and a big fan of combat wombat to hope you can make it down on Saturday night down to Jagera a hall that’s tomorrow night  where I  Ah Is it from combat one that we playing alongside race rage while play later in the show accomplice collective local West Enders who are always a good time and dancing water. So  time for a bit of fun and dancing amongst all the disrupting that is planned land forces is big weapons Expo if you haven’t heard,  which if you’ve been listening to the paradigm shift affortable that hopefully you have.

 And the disruption began last night, as you heard earlier with cloud and ash jumping on a  hunter Wolf, which is an unmanned military vehicle used for carrying all their gear and weapons and things like that around.

 And technological development in war as actually that song Star Wars, of course, talking about partly the militarization of space that began in the 80s under Ronald Reagan with the US and beginning that the space warfare programs and of course, now,  a lot of modern warfare would be impossible without satellites that they have circling the globe spying on everybody.

 And there’s nowhere we can go to the out of the reaches of militarism. Well, the technological developments of warfare continue. And despite what people sometimes say about how wonderful it is, how good it is for technology, they don’t tend to improve our lives. They improve the ability for control and for countries to attack other people sometimes attack their own civilians, of course, which is a lot of what a lot of what the military is used for around the world. That’s the reality is that actually, it’s for policing protests for protecting corrupt regimes and things like that. And, and, of course, some of the technological developments of the last century in warfare. I think that the world now agrees a totally unethical chemical warfare, cluster bombs are landmines and nuclear weapons, which were on the way to banning the number of countries have signed on to a UN treaty to ban nuclear weapons. And certainly,  much of the world agrees that it’s totally unethical, something of the scale of nuclear weapons to ever be used. And so we’re left with technological developments that put us in a worse place than we were before. There’s the opposite of what new technology is meant to do to improve our lives make doing things easier and better. And the next step, and they still military,  the military industrial complex still goes on and on about innovation and being at the cutting edge of development and things like that. And of course, they go into high schools and primary schools, as we heard from  at least West who played on the paradigm shift a few weeks ago, talking about weapons companies going to schools, they have partnerships with universities, a lot of the time they get these development grants off the government. And then it’s left to the rest of us, people working in, you know, civilian organizations, civil society to rein in the terrible technology that they’re creating. Well, this is continuing, of course, with lethal autonomous weapons, the next step in technological warfare. I spoke with Matilda Byrne, from the organization safe ground about what to expect from  autonomous weapons, what’s already being used, and what we can do to try to stop them.

Andy: Could you start off by introducing yourself?

Sure. So my name is Matilda Byrne. And I’m based in Melbourne and with the organization safe ground, who’s a disarmament focused NGO, where I am the National Coordinator of the campaign to stop killer robots. So killer robots for those of us who have watched our share of science fiction movies have sounded pretty bad. Can you tell us specifically what is the campaign to stop killer robots about? Sure. So I think, obviously, killer robots can on conjure a very sort of sci fi esque image. And that’s not really something we’re talking about today. In the present. killer robots are also referred to as lethal autonomous weapons systems. So autonomous weapons are sort of this whole different range of emerging weaponry that we have. And lethal autonomous weapons are ones where the decision making processes to selecting a target to attack and then the decision of whether or not to attack that target is actually done by the machine itself. So using something like artificial intelligence, and there’s no human oversight, verification or sort of control over that process. And that’s what we’re really worried about. And so the campaign is advocating for a new international treaty. So a new international law that would regulate this area of autonomous weapons and put  in place, prohibitions to prevent laws or those weapons I just described and sort of other aspects of autonomy sort of put limits where we think this is just a step too far.

 So, in the US wars in the last couple of decades, we’ve seen the sort of drone warfare kind of remote controlled  aircraft, but also using AI algorithms to sort through metadata to find targets and things like that. So that’s, in a way a use of AI. But not it’s not quite what you’re talking about other other examples of this already in use in warfare.

 Right. So yeah, there are sort of already examples of AI being sort of integrated into defense systems, sort of what you described, or, for example, autonomous piloting where, you know, aircraft might be able to pilot itself, for instance, without being remote controlled. So these sort of things we are seeing that are sort of more increasingly autonomous weapons in the US, like you’ve mentioned, also, Russia, Israel, the UK and work being done here. So there are systems that I guess a semi autonomous or kind of precursory. But in those sort of selection of tickets and things that’s still being done by humans at this point in time, that’s what we want to retain. So presumably, there are other developments underway that you’re campaigning against, what kind of autonomous weapons are we talking about, that are being designed or created at the moment.

 So I think we’re most likely to see, perhaps stepping over this Real Red Line from sending might be semi autonomous, but has humans evolved to something beyond that, say, targeting humans, perhaps using target profiles, or that we find really worrying? I guess he’s most likely to be from the air. So sort of like a drawing that became becomes fully autonomous. So I kind of air based systems, or are things on the ground, I guess, deployed in land that can do the sort of sensing themselves, that’s what we’re really worried about. So I guess an example from Australia, something like the new loyal wingman project, that is a fully autonomous aircraft. But it’s not designed to deploy lethal force and attack targets, it’s designed to sort of accompany other aircraft. However, to sort of extend that capability into the future. And to arm something like that would be entirely possible. So what we’re worried about is crossing over that red line.

And so that there needs to be strong policy and commitments to not do that. And something that’s really problematic here within Australia is that we’re not hearing any of those commitments, any kind of policy like that, coming from the Australian government from the Defense Department, saying that we will roll out lethal autonomous weapon systems that do this targeting and attacking without human control, they have a very sort of opaque approach to human control where maybe it’s okay in this instance, and it’s given, there’s so much innovation happening in the area, a real concern for us. So what kind of like software’s artificial intelligence. So we talking about here, like facial recognition, like metadata analysis, GPS coordinates, what kind of things are they are being used to try to create lethal weapons? So we do know, there’s lots of different AI to do sort of big number crunching of vast volumes of data. And so we know that that’s something that’s sort of being integrated into systems already, facial recognition that you mentioned is something that we’re really worried about, partially because we know how bad facial recognition is. So to give you an example, I think it came out of Google.

So you know, one of the big sort of software developing companies where facial recognition was successful 90% of the time on white males without beards, specifically. And so I think if you think about realistically, where was a fort, we know that facial recognition is not going to get it right, it will be inaccurate, and in particular, it disproportionately impacts people of color. So AI struggles, as skin color gets darker. And so putting something like this in a system to target or any other kind of target profile, really something like if it’s heat based, whatever technologies they’re using, is really just distilling a person into these sort of metrics in a way where it removes all of the humanity as well as not necessarily being accurate. And so for us, that’s a real issue, which is why it’s so important that you know, a human does do the ultimate targeting and looking and seeing when assessing whether or not it is, you know, the correct personal waffle targets to say, you know,  A combatant that is in warfare rather than a civilian and so on.

 I did hear someone say that in the US drone warfare, because they use metadata analysis to pick targets, like, you know, GPS locations, people who are going to suspect areas, that there are taxi drivers and things who travel around a lot, who go to a lot of these places that are like red alerts for the good AI that get targeted wrongly, or the other things like that.

 Yeah, so that’s a really good example of how already, we’re not always getting it right. And so clearly, the,  you know, the technology is making this kind of false correlation. But then we have the opportunity with something like a drone strike for a person to evaluate that, to think about that to draw any other connections. And perhaps some of the time is still making the wrong choice, where we see sort of some issues with drone strikes that have already occurred.

So if you think about taking the human out of that equation, who is the person that actually can understand context and to make those other connections, or, you know, if we’re not talking specifically about targeting, in an individual instance, something else, like in a conflict zone, exercising restraint, when they see sort of incoming, a potential incoming attack that risks I guess, escalating unnecessarily, it’s people that can make those evaluations and judgments that are so crucial in warfare. And whilst we might not get it right, 100% of the time removing that is just such a big risk to sort of, you know, global stability in general, broadly. And then also in this individual cases, you know, the civilian populations where wars are fought. So there are some pretty serious ethical questions, I guess, about the use of AI to create autonomous weapons. Is this the kind of thing that stop killer robots is trying to bring up? Yes, 100%.

So I mentioned earlier use the word dehumanizing so that’s a real big part of this question. So the idea of, I guess, upholding human dignity and asking, Do we even think it’s okay for an AI to make a decision over who lives and dies. So there’s no human involved. AI isn’t a moral agent. So it can’t sort of make a choice based on its conscious or appreciate the value of life? So there’s this big ethical question that’s really being raised. And I think it’s also an important point, because it’s in all sectors of society where we’re seeing this integration of AI, not just in warfare in conflict and type in potentially targeting people, but also, you know, in health where, at the moment, health practitioners can use various AI systems that make suggestions around say history and traits and things. But ultimately, it’s a human practitioner or doctor or specialist, who then decides about, you know, how to proceed with that. And so, this idea of delegating life and death decisions to machines is one where really a society as a whole, we have to decide how we want to proceed with that. And really, we believe that there is a moral red line here and an imperative to not do that handing over. So that’s, you know, a really strong part of what the campaign does emphasize  All  right.

Andy: That is Anomie there on the Paradigm Shift. Predator drones over Yemen is the name of the song. And of course, in recent years Australia has  been fair Australian companies have been found at selling weapons to  the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia in their occupation of Yemen, which has been a ongoing disaster, which has forced many,  many people to leave or as killed many civilians, and an ongoing conflict. Before that, we’ll be speaking with Matilda Byrne about autonomous weapons, the next stage in technological warfare, isn’t that exciting?

Plenty to look forward to new fancy ways to be killed by a robot. Let’s  go back to chatting with Matilda.

Andy: I’m interested in what you were just saying about AI being used in other sectors of society and ethical questions there. Because it is becoming so prevalent, you know, in our everyday lives in sort of social media algorithms and things like that, but also in industrial processes in you know, all kinds of work, driverless cars, all these kinds of things. Do you see autonomous weapons as being removed from these other questions about AI? Or is it all part of the same broad conversation?

Matilda: I think in some ways, it is all part of the same conversations. There’s these kinds of key ethical questions that we need to broach in AI in general. So things like ethical AI frameworks apply to all uses of AI and all different applications. I do think, though, there’s a really important distinction to be made with autonomous weapons. And this often comes up because people talk about autonomous vehicles being this kind of a great solution to minimize, you know, deaths and risks on the road, which in times the technology develops, it could well be, but I think it’s what’s key to see there is that the whole point of having autonomous vehicles or self driving cars, is to remove or reduce road toll, and to save lives inherently. But with autonomous weapons. The whole point is to use them to wage war to fight in conflict, you know, they’re sort of an instrument of killing in themselves, which does make the conversation a little bit different for autonomous weapons specifically, and some of the, I guess, aspects intrinsically linked to that.

Andy:  So can you tell us a bit about stop killer robots and the campaign to ban autonomous weapons?

Matilda: Sure. So the campaign to stop killer robots is, I guess, a global coalition of different organizations that are working with the same goal to sort of have an international treaty that would prohibit lethal autonomous weapon systems and maintain meaningful human control over weapon systems use. So that’s sort of specifically what we are advocating for globally. And so there’s about I think, now over 160 Different organizations in about 60 plus countries working on this issue. So there’s diplomatic talks that take  Place, there’s sort of been seven years now of international discussions within the United Nations on this topic specifically, and they’re not able to actually achieve much action. So a lot of our work is about putting pressure on that process. Part of the reason why action isn’t being achieved is because it’s a consensus process. So every single country has to agree to anything for it to move forward.

And, of course, we have countries like, for instance, Russia, who are very happy to sort of raise their hand and, you know, put forward an issue with, you know, how it’s been discussed, or you know, what policy outcome might possibly be taken. But we really feel there is a strong need for treaty in this area, new international law to be formed. And we know that there’s many, many countries that do support that.

So within Australia, specifically, the campaign is really I guess, trying to bring awareness of the Australian position and raise some scrutiny, I suppose, as I mentioned, the sort of a government position is quite opaque, they’re not really prepared to make any kind of commitment to ruling out lethal autonomous weapons or, you know, maintaining human control, like I mentioned, as autonomous weapons progress.

And so we’re really trying to push Australia to do that. And also to be less, I guess, detracting in the international process, because what’s also really problematic is, you know, Australia as an international actor, you know, attends these talks, but really, what they’re offering and saying in their statements, is at the very lowest common denominator of the packer amount among the small handful of countries that are saying, Oh, no, we don’t need strong policy options, we can just keep discussing and developing shared understandings. And that’s enough for now, when we know it’s not enough, because technology is being developed at such a rapid pace. And the time really to act is now and we do need that international law to set sort of the international standards from which all the other regulation can flow on from.

Andy:  So international conflict laws haven’t always been effective at stopping people from doing things like, I don’t know, genocide, or attacks on civilians, or, you know, conflicts without UN resolutions. But I guess you’d be looking at things like treaties against cluster munitions and landmines have precedents of what you’re trying to achieve here.

Matilda: Yeah, that’s exactly right. So we’ve seen with weapons that there has been a lot of success in, you know, disarmament treaties, limiting their use. So something like I guess chemical weapons or biological weapons is very much also based in that the moral revulsion of those weapons. And whilst it hasn’t been never used ever again, we haven’t seen it since you know, they were first passed, it really is only in this slight couple of instances where we’ve seen something like that being used. And then landmines is actually a really great example, because with land mines, there’s been a lot, obviously, ratification of the treaty. So when people agree, like, yes, they will abide by all of these terms. But a country like the US has not actually signed and ratified and often we get sort of the question raised, well, not everyone’s going to sign. But the thing about international law is that it also sets norms or customs or sort of expected standards of behavior.

So with landmines even though the US has never signed that treaty, they don’t, you know, produce them stockpile and use landmines anymore. So we do see that they do have an effect these treaties, even on big global actors that do wield a lot of power. So in Brisbane, there is land forces, weapons expo where a lot of the world’s biggest arms companies will be getting together and showcasing their wares.

Andy: So I guess in that context is interesting. Talk about what companies are currently developing lethal autonomous weapons?

Guest: Yeah, so it’s an interesting question, because we do know that more and more countries are using AI, integrating AI for maybe films, semi autonomous systems, etc. They’re all sort of on this pathway, potentially towards lethal autonomous weapons. So the really big ones that I would probably name a scene doing a lot of work in this area, a Boeing, Lockheed Martin as well. And they have a specific lab in Melbourne, the stellar lab working in this space, as some, I guess, like maybe the bigger arms companies that are doing a lot of work in this area where we would say that they also have their own imperative to say that they have clear policy where they won’t produce a lethal autonomous weapon system because it would be unlawful.

 But in addition to some of those bigger companies, we’re seeing a lot of other kinds of smaller companies that are working in this area using AI and defense systems.

 So, like cyborg dynamics skyborne technologies defend tech sterile Australian based companies that are doing work in this area, a lot of them I guess collaborate as part of this bigger trusted autonomous systems. It’s a defense Cooperative Research Center. So that also links with industry industry, University and the Department of Defense. And so we know there’s a lot of work going on with autonomous systems and where we don’t know is actually where the limits are, where the lines are, if there is any policy and how much is actually happening in that I guess spectrum from some autonomous systems in a surveillance system all the way through to potential lethal autonomous weapons, which we would see as being as I mentioned just before unlawful also immoral and where before which there must be aligned at these companies as well weren’t cross in their weapons development.

Andy: Okay, thanks for Matif people are interested in finding out more about autonomous weapons and stop killer robots how can they do so? Yes, you can find us on social media and also through the website so stop killer robots.org is sort of all the global information through the safe ground website so safe ground.org.au You can find out all about the campaign in Australia and on social media the easiest way across all platforms is to search hashtag us a US oz ban killer robots. Alright, thanks very much Matilda. Great thanks so much for having me  again  losing  God y’all  listen to  my heartbreaks  to the undertaker  within the younger generation and  chat  Undertaker  a young  man  precious  Waukesha  can’t give  it away  y’all  afternoon Mr. Chairman  to the undertaker  they say we must  know this guy jumped  on y’all  a classic antiwar song there on the paradigm shift on for trouble Zed from Edwin Starr.

Andy: That is war and 60s Motown. What couldn’t they do? What style of music didn’t they make amazing? Before then we’re speaking with Matilda Byrne from a safer ground organization trying to stop lethal autonomous weapons being developed. And now well that  interview was being played. I did get a text through. I got one requesting the Terminator theme, which would seem very apt, but I didn’t have it on hand to play. But I got another one from Dave from eco radio, which is great radio program. Palestine – You can listen to it midday on Wednesdays right here on for troubles Ed. And he alerted me to the fact that Israel has deployed an AI powered, remote controlled smart shooter to disperse protesters in Palestine at one of the checkpoints  at Hebron there in Palestine. Of course, if you’re unfamiliar, there’s checkpoints of Palestinian people want to move in or out of the occupied territories, and then they have to go through these checkpoints. And so, for crowd dispersal, Israel has put a  semi autonomous weapon there. And it is built by a company called  What are they called?

Smart shooter, who have developed autonomous fire control system called Smash, which they say can be attached to assault rifles to fall in locking on targets using image processing based on artificial intelligence. They say that  it overcomes challenges faced by soldiers battles such as physical exertion, fatigue, stress, mental pressure to aim accurately and ensure the shooters success. Well.

 Palestinian people have responded Issa Amro a Palestinian human rights activist says, I see this as a transition from human to technological control. We as Palestinians have become an object of experimenting and training for Israel’s military high tech industry, which is not accountable for anything it does.

 And I think that is the side I’m on defending the humanity of Palestinians ahead of the need to develop killer robots to enable better killing.

Andy:  Now, Palestine is an issue that has been talked about at disrupt land forces. Of course, if you’ve just tuned in, one of the reasons that we’re talking about weapons is that a lot of the world’s biggest, and Australia’s biggest weapons companies are in Brisbane next week for the land forces Weapons Convention at the Convention Center in South Brisbane and disrupt land forces is trying to make it a nightmare to run, trying to stop them gathering there, make it difficult for them to sell their weapons and network and,  you know, build better connections for making contracts for corroding our democracy for destroying our planet. And so we’re going to be causing a ruckus or next week, and there will be an event next Wednesday at 6pm.

Justice for Palestine long term Brisbane group working for, as the name says, Justice for Palestine are going to organize an event outside the convention center as the delegates are sort of walking out for the day, where there’ll be showing pictures and calling out the names of Palestinian people who have been killed by the Israeli military, including there was a recent massacre in the Gaza Strip. So that’s at 6pm outside the prison Convention and Exhibition Center, and the other week, we agree with us, we’re outside Elbit Systems who do make semi-autonomous weapons as well and have provided for a long time weapons to enable the Israeli occupation of Palestine. And there’ll be other tours of weapons companies coming up on the  Wednesday, same day, actually, to go around to some of Britain’s  weapons companies that are lurking in our suburbs unbeknownst to most of us these people that are selling weapons to conflict zones all around the planet.

 I’m going to play another little song here and then I will come back and read the whole program of everything coming up at  land forces. A little language warning on this next one from race rage. If you don’t like swearing, then look out because the next three minutes there’s going to be a little bit of it. But race rage will be here on Saturday tomorrow night playing at Jagera Hall as well. And this song is also the title of another event which you hear about to staffers. It’s called Eat the rich 

Plays song

Andy:  You can see race for age as I said at the get funked free concert for disrupt land forces. It is tomorrow night from 8pm at Jagera Hall in Musgrave Park. And eight the rich is the name of another event that’s coming up this week for disrupt land forces on Monday from 1pm There will be an eight the rich banquet followed by a parade down to all the hotels and restaurants around the convention center where we think some of the landlord’s delegates who are in there setting up their stores might be wining and dining and say  we’ll go down and let everybody know that we’re a city that’s keen on peace not so keen on weapons companies gathering. So that’s 1pm on Monday, meeting Jagera Hall, most of the events for disrupt land forces will be based around the convention center but also Jagga hall where we’ll have a little bit of a base there in Musgrave Park, of course, on Yuggera country there. And  so you can pop down there anytime, really. And there will be people there. Over Saturday and Sunday. There’ll be workshops running at Jagera Hall to learn all about how to resist a bit of information about the weapons industry and a bit about strategy and how to resist it. The strategy for disrupt land forces I’ll let you know  basically is make it so difficult and annoying to run this event that they just stopped doing it that it becomes just such a  hassle and an expense that it’s not worthwhile. And so far we’re doing okay. Last night, there was so many police all around the convention center and in fact driving escorting military vehicles through the city to get them to the convention center. It must have been an incredibly expensive exercise. And that’s the kind of thing that we’re in to make to cause too much of a ruckus. On that note, from Tuesday to Thursday, outside the convention center morning and afternoon, people will be causing a ruckus, making it sort of unpleasant to be walking in and out of the land forces convention. On the Wednesday there will be a tour around some of the weapons manufacturers that are permanently in our city. Or there’ll be meeting at Jagera Hall at 9am. You can come down before then of course, if you want to  shout abuse at people walk into the convention center.

 There’ll be a 24 hour silent vigil if that’s more your type, some of the Quakers will be organizing a 24 hour vigil in radical place in the city. And you can go and join them at any time if you want a bit of respite for all some quiet meditation on peace and, and witnessing holding the light as the Quakers say. And for the final day is sending the clouds is what has been called it’s going to be a fun big disruption on Thursday afternoon for the final afternoon of land forces. There’ll be plenty of other things going on too, that I’m not going to tell you about because they’re being secretly organized.

 But get down to Jagera Hall over the next week. Come and meet people and get involved and it will be a great time and an important campaign. Our city can be more than just a meeting place for some of the world’s worst corporations and let’s try to make it that and and organize an alternative convention. I wrote an article that’s called Five Reasons to disrupt land forces which covers everything you can find on the paradigm shift Facebook page, and hopefully I’ll see you down there over the next week. I’m going to go out with one final song friends James who his muse is a bit too gentle to be at the Saturday night party but you will hear him playing music for the next week I’m sure local folk singer is his cup of another 60s any war classic Masters of War See you next week.

Franz James (sings): Come you masters of war / You that build all the guns / You that build the death planes / You that build the big bombs  / You that hide behind walls / You that hide behind desks / I just want you to know / I can see through your masks / You that never done nothin’  / But build to destroy / You play with my world / Like it’s your little toy / You put a gun in my hand / And you hide from my eyes  / And you turn and run farther / When the fast bullets fly / Like Judas of old / You lie and deceive / A world war can be won  / You want me to believe / But I see through your eyes / And I see through your brain / Like I see through the water / That runs down my drain  / You fasten the triggers / For the others to fire / Then you set back and watch / When the death count gets higher / You hide in your mansion  / As young people’s blood / Flows out of their bodies / And is buried in the mud

You’ve thrown the worst fear / That can ever be hurled  / Fear to bring children / Into the world / For threatening my baby / Unborn and unnamed / You ain’t worth the blood  / That runs in your veins / How much do I know / To talk out of turn? / You might say that I’m young / You might say I’m unlearned  / But there’s one thing I know / Though I’m younger than you / Even Jesus would never / Forgive what you do / Let me ask you one question  / Is your money that good? / Will it buy you forgiveness? / Do you think that it could? / I think you will find / When your death takes its toll  / All the money you made / Will never buy back your soul …

Ukraine: World War III?

There is very real danger of World War.  But I agree with your line. We are faced with huge economic and ecological challenges and we are possibly in the run down to WW3. “Mad” does not cover it.” – an anti-war activist and educator.

Ian Curr’s interview with Bevan Ramsden (IPAN) on Ukraine

  1. Why should the Australian government change tack and insist that it’s allies in the conflict (the US, UK and NATO) call a ceasefire in Ukraine?
  2. Is the US involvement in the Ukraine conflict an attempt to weaken Russia? If so, why?
  3. What is the main priority for peace activists in Australia regarding this conflict? 
  4. How should we go about preventing an escalation of the war between Russia and Ukraine?
  5. Is there anything else you would like to add?

Bevan Ramsden is an ex-telecommunications engineer and a long-time peace activist and advocates for Australia’s independence. He is a member of the coordinating committee of the Independent and Peaceful Australia Network (IPAN).

Transcript of interview with Bevan Ramsden (IPAN)

[apologies for any transcription errors]

Before addressing the questions which I’ve been given about how to achieve peace in Ukraine, and what the Australian government should be doing, I think it’s appropriate, to have a bit of background on how it has all happened … this war in the Ukraine.

It goes back to when the Soviet Union broke up in the late 1980s. Ukraine was one of the several Soviet republics, which became independent nations. And despite that Ukraine and Russia continued to have friendly relations. The United States actually promised Russia in 1990 and 1993, that they would not expand NATO eastwards towards Russia, and try and bring the ex-Soviet Union republics under their control. They promised that that would not be done.

However, under President Clinton, those assurances were broken. And so a number of the former Soviet bloc states are now members of NATO. Further, the United States under Trump backed out of an agreement with Russia not to install intermediate range missiles in Europe. So if Ukraine joined NATO, Russia would have NATO bases on on its borders, with the possibility of intermediate range missiles, which could be a nuclear armed, close to its border and pointed at Russia, a situation that obviously it would not want to tolerate and one of the reasons it demands that Ukraine never be allowed to join NATO.

A further instance of President Clinton’s assurances being broken about the US not trying to bring ex Soviet Union republics under its control was in 2014, February and March 2014. It’s been seen quite clearly that the United States and NATO helped engineer a violent coup in Ukraine, which overthrew the democratically elected Ukrainian government of Viktor Yanukovych, and installed a government dominated by far right elements through the virulently hostile to Russia and pro-NATO.

And one of these groups was the neo-Nazi ASOV battalion, now part of the Ukrainian National Guard and notorious for its savage attacks on the Russian speaking people of eastern Ukraine and the shelling of residential areas in the Donbass region.

So, following that coup, called the Euromaidan coup, by the West, there was a virtual civil war in Ukraine, with the Eastern area of Ukraine, not wanting to be under the control of this newly engineered right-wing government. Hostilities (broke out) between the east and west of Ukraine,(and) to prevent this, the Minsk II agreement was signed between Russia and Ukraine. It (Minsk II) stipulated that the Russian speaking regions of Donetsk and Luhansk in Ukraine would enjoy regional autonomy while remaining part of Ukraine. Although this agreement was brokered by Germany and France, and supported by the United States, the Ukrainian government has refused to implement it. This led to Donetsk and Luhansk declaring their independence from Ukraine and forming the Donetsk People’s Republic and Luhansk People’s Republic.

Now Putin and actually, his intervention, his invasion of Ukraine, was allegedly to get rid of this neo-Nazi battalion and support the people of eastern Ukraine from attacks by that battalion and Ukrainian armed forces. That so called justification has been put out by by Putin. You could understand (how) with that background, this might happen. But nothing in this history justifies one country invading another, even for such reasons; and certainly peace groups in Australia with the Independent Peace Australian Network (IPAN) have condemned that invasion. Whilst understanding some of the reasons why it might have occurred, there is no justification for that and the war that’s taken place.

So that’s the bit of background, as I put it in because the Minsk II agreement, if it was reinvigorated after a ceasefire, might lead a way to finding a peaceful solution, which Minsk safeguards the peace and security of peoples in the region, if it was actually returned to and implemented.

Why should the Australian government change tack and insist that it’s allies in the conflict (the US, UK and NATO) call a ceasefire in Ukraine?

The Australian government has been sending arms and military equipment to Ukraine. And that was one of the points made just recently in an IPAN media release [IPAN Urges Australian Government to call for a Ceasefire in Ukraine – 23 September 2022]. That media release, actually called on the Australian government to support a ceasefire in Ukraine. And the call for a ceasefire and negotiations, leading to a situation which safeguards the peace and security of all people in the region. That call has been made by China and by India. I’ve noticed that in the Australian mainstream media, I haven’t been able to see any mention or recognition or acknowledgement that China has called for a ceasefire in this war in Ukraine, and UN has called for negotiations to an agreement, which would lead to peace and security for all people in the region – Ukrainians, Eastern Western and Russian people too.

And IPAN has called on the Australian Government in this most recent media release (23 September 2022), to change its tack on Ukraine to support such a ceasefire and negotiations and to urge its allies, like the United States and NATO to also support a ceasefire. No progress can be made towards peace until a ceasefire is actually implemented and agreed to. And indeed, IPAN has pointed out that United Nations involvement is probably essential with a UN peacekeeping force to supervise such a ceasefire, whilst negotiations might start and a true solution which recognizes the security concerns of all people in the region, that is in Ukraine and the Donbass region, and Russia, and anyone else. A solution which will ensure their peace and their security, because the only people that suffer; not the only people that suffer, but the main people that suffer in this war in Ukraine is ordinary people noncombatants, including children. That’s the trouble with war being used as a means of trying to solve a conflict.

Only by negotiations around the conference table, can peace be really achieved and the solution achieved, and that involves always a little bit of compromise here and there to bring an end to a conflict, which is causing such hardship and such suffering for the ordinary working people. That’s men, women and children in Ukraine; and for that matter, also in Russia, where for families have lost many soldiers in this war, and are no doubt suffering, also.

The war has also caused suffering to Europe in the sense that the United States has surged European countries not to buy oil or gas from Russia, and other commodities, in order to put pressure on them. To get out of Ukraine, and that is causing hardship to the people of Europe as well. So there’s every reason to want to bring to an end the war in Ukraine, for the sake of the people with the region, and, and for peace. So the call on the Australian Government by IPAN, has been for supporting a ceasefire, the call that India and China have made, and support for negotiations for a security solution, which will meet the needs of the people in the region.

And in addition, IPAN has called on the Australian government to stop sending arms and military equipment, which is only prolonging the war.

What is the main priority for peace activists in Australia regarding this conflict? 

Preventing an escalation, of course, is equally important, because Putin has mentioned using weapons of mass destruction if necessary. And the United States military have said, Yes, we would respond if that happened. So are we talking here about nuclear weapons? That would be a fearsome situation, if such an escalation led to the use of nuclear weapons, and everything must be done to stop that.

So the first priority is not only for that reason, but for peace is to in fact, call for a ceasefire. And as far as Australia is concerned, to put all the pressure we can on the Australian government to change its position of feeding the Ukraine military with the equipment which is prolonging the war, and to join the call (by India and China) for a ceasefire and negotiations.

How do we do that? Well, this means getting the support of a broad section of the Australian people to bring pressure on the government to lobby those members of the government like Greens and some Independents, to get them onside and to lobby the other MPs to get them onside …. when they see a broad movement in Australia, and they see protests, meetings, and those sorts of actions.

For example, recently, there was a statement printed in the Saturday paper and the weekend Australian signed by about 1,000 Australians, including organizations calling for us good idea not to go to war was calling on the Australian government not to be involved in a war on China and to cease war preparations for that purpose and not to allow Australian territory to be used and further to sign the treaty to prohibit nuclear weapons.

That was an action which showed a strength of Australian opinion. Over one thousand (1,000) people signed and they donated money, something like $20,000 to put these advertisements in two major national papers, actions like that, meetings rallies, writing to your members of parliament, writing letters and newspaper all the usual stuff (is) needed to develop the strength of opinion that the government cannot then resist and realize(s) this, as electoral consequences for not listening to the people, then that way, actions occur for the better. So let us hope that the call for the ceasefire and negotiations is heeded and supported by the Australian government and its allies.

AAAC Advert calling for peace with China

Is the US involvement in Ukraine in the conflict, an attempt to weaken Russia? And if so, why?

Well, my opinion, that is one of the motivations of the United States. It sees Russia as a competitor, as it sees China and the imperialists, those who represent the interests of the huge corporations who want to exploit and make money out of other people’s resources, and indeed, using their labor. They see Russia as competitor and China’s competitor, and they want to reduce and weaken their influence. And I think it’s been said, by commentators, and it’s been said by some representatives of the United States government, that weakening Russia is to their advantage, and prolonging the war to the last Ukrainian is in their interests. That’s United States imperialist interests. Of course, not the interests of the Ukrainian people.

Bevan Ramsden (IPAN)
29 Sept 2022

Some QANTAS workers are more equal than others …

The Australian government sold Qantas for $2.1 billion in two tranches, first by a sale of 25% to British Airways in 1993 and the remaining 75% by public float in mid-1995. At about the same time the Australian government sold all the major airports in Australia.

Previously in 1992, the Australian government sold its publicly owned domestic carrier to QANTAS. Australian Airlines, publicly owned, was one of the most profitable airlines in the world. Roll on 30 years to the COVID19 pandemic in 2022, QANTAS has a revenue of over $5.9B.

QANTAS leases many of its planes while its jumbos, the A380s, are in mothballs with their pilots stood down.

Who does own QANTAS in 2022? Is it owned by foreign hedge funds and financial institutions? Who owns the QANTAS debt? Are the government’s rules against foreign ownership effective?

In 2009, QANTAS CEO Alan Joyce took ‘the Cobar option’, that is withdrawing all work from its employees; standing them all down with the threat of the sack. He got management to load and unload the planes. This was unsafe. The Fair Work Commission endorsed this move by QANTAS. They threw up their hands knowing it was unfair. Joyce threatened to sack all QANTAS workers again if they were re-instated under fair work conditions.

Not for the first or last time. Such moves by the Fair Work Commission have generally favoured employers and had bipartisan support in the Australian parliament.

At no stage did the peak union body, the ACTU, mount a strong industrial campaign against secondary boycotts. This could have saved Qantas workers.

In 1989 the airlines sacked all the pilots and the government replaced them with military personnel. The government refused to repeal sections 45 D and E of the Trade Practices Act which made secondary boycotts unlawful.

These laws were introduced by the Fraser government during the live export of cattle dispute in the late 1970s to crush the meatworkers union.

Similar laws are now used against all workers and their unions that stand up to companies like QANTAS demanding a fair go.

Secondary boycotts are essential because workers can impose black bands against a company that is not treating its workers fairly.

Also, unions can impose green bans for social and community issues – environmental issues – on companies that insist on polluting with the burning of fossil fuels.

So the secondary boycott’s strength is that one set of workers could go on strike against their own company and try to influence their company’s dealings with a third party company.

In this case, subsidiaries of Qantas could be supported by, say legacy staff, that are employed directly by Qantas; for example, people on the ground could refuse to load baggage onto planes where they feel that the Qantas stewards employed by the subsidiary company are being treated unfairly. That’s 4PR – voice of the people. Let’s go out with Dusty Springfield singing ‘Windmills of your mind’.

Ian Curr
6 Sep 2022

Top Guns

Disrupt Land Forces

This week’s show is about disrupting arms fairs. That’s right, the Land Forces weapons expo is on again in Brisbane at the start of October, and the community is mobilising again to disrupt it. I talk to organiser Margie Pestorius and to investigative journalist Michelle Fahy about the arms industry’s dirty links to government.

Playlist

Lowkey – Hand on your gun

Zelda Da – Jangan Bunuh Kami LagiAUS

Ryan Harvey -It’s bigger than a war

The Wild – We will drive these warlords out

August 19, 2022

Transcript

Margie Pestorius 

I’m Margie Pestorius, and I’m with the organization Wage Peace. And we’re looking at disrupting militarism in Australia, the rise of militarism, especially with the weapons corporations here,

Andy 

Yes. Well, quite topical talking about weapons corporations, because in Brisbane, in six weeks or so there will be a convergence of weapons corporations, called Land Forces. Can you tell us about it?

Margie Pestorius 

Well, it’s a massive weapons exhibition. And there’s a gathering of arms dealers; or people would-be arms dealers, there’s a lot of money around the arms dealers at the moment. So everybody gathers in Brisbane to sell what they’ve got, but mainly to try and get as much money out of the government as they can for either real projects or fake projects. So the money sloshing around, they all gather there in the Brisbane Convention Center. They make deals, it’s about 30 Billion a year at the moment that they’re transiting around themselves.

Andy 

$30 billion a year, quite a lot of money. And so, I mean, what kind of corporations are we talking about that gathering here, Land Forces,

Margie Pestorius 

The biggest weapons corporations in the world will be there. Many from the top 100. But definitely many from the top 20, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, the big American ones, Boeing, Boeing has a special relationship with the Queensland Government, of course, but also the German company Rheinmetal, which also has a special relationship with the Queensland Government. And companies such as Tallis, the French weapons company, but they what happens is they get the money from the government and then they disperse it to smaller … to a set of smaller enterprises. So all of those small enterprises all wanting a bit of a cut of the cake, that will be there as well.

Andy 

They’re, you know, small Australian companies that get a contract doing a part of a job for Rheinmetal or BAE or Lockheed Martin or something.

Margie Pestorius 

That’s right, those big companies, they get the sort of overall tender for a new tank, a jet fighter or a ship. And then they then divided up into smaller companies actually, mostly they divided amongst themselves first. And then after they divided amongst themselves, they then divide it up into smaller and smaller companies. Another company that’s quite notable, I think, is NIOA, which is an Australian company, Brisbane based … its… it made it sort of …. it managed to grow itself quite rapidly by getting a tender for all the police guns in Australia for importing all the police guns in Australia. And now it’s sort of moving into the missile sort of arena, which is the fastest sort of booming area in Australia.

Andy 

Hopefully not for the cops, the missiles.

Margie Pestorius 

Well, I think no, I think they’ve they’re sort of they’ve moved … the cops were their jump up. They’re sort of, you know, how they grew their business. And now they’re moving into military, defense contracts.

Andy 

Okay, well, I mean, police guns has been a topic of its own in recent times, especially following the death of Kumanjayi Walker, and in Yuendumu; there’s talk about the use of police firearms. So I mean, that’s one way that weapons have come up in our discussions, public discussions about justice and freedom and things like that, but Um, I mean, overall, what are? Why should we resist something like the Land Forces conference?

Well, for starters, it’s a huge waste of money. There’s a lot of, there’s so much money, you have to have some corruption with that money. You see a normalization of militarism, you see a push to sort of normalize militarism across all social sectors, including schooling and education university, you get a push by the arms dealers to take over, you know, elements of the university, you know, the best paid positions at the moment at the universities, where you have weapons companies, engineering companies sort of moving in for high level technology. But really, and then you get the actual ethical issues of where they’re rolling out the actual violence, so that some of its for money on one hand, but on the other hand, they are rolling out violence. So they are anti cops, for example. But they’re also arming, for example, the Indonesian military. And you get, you get the sort of the the, the objects that are actually being used, such as the transport vehicles, tanks, attack helicopters, and small arms, a lot of small arms. So they’re moving company countries like Indonesia, or buying those from the corporations and corporations, or even the offices of the ministers in these in most of the states, that pushing these weapons, and buying getting huge tenders, huge contracts. And then they’re being used in a place like breast pump one, to actually take control of indigenous lands, dispossessed indigenous tribes, deforest those lands. So they’re the front, the military is in the front of the enforcement of the extraction, the colonial extraction. And so if we’re going to peel back colonial colonial colonization, and decolonize, we’re going to have to deal with this. This pointy edge of militarization, which enforces extraction, enforces land stealing, enforces the dispossession of First Nations people.

Andy 

Yeah, there’s sort of two entities and they one is the frontline and of the weapons industry, which is where the weapons get used and trying to keep that in attention, while people are talking about just trade show jargon about products and things like that bring attention to where the weapons are used. But there’s also the kind of back end of lack the political corruption, the personnel revolving door and the lobbying of the arms industry and things like that in Australian politics.

Margie Pestorius 

One of the ways I explained it, this is one of the only places where the money goes directly from government to contractor, because the government’s are the dealers, you know, they’re the deliberately Defense Department. So the money just comes straight in from, for example, the fossil fuel industry, where they do even though the center life tax, they didn’t get a lot of money out of the fossil fuel industry. And then that money then has to be used somewhere. So they, they pushed out through the arms industry. So that’s the sort of the money dealing the ridiculously large projects that don’t ever really start or never get in the way or have big failures, then those vehicles and objects don’t ever get used. For example, jet fighters haven’t been used since that 1950s. Last time, they’ll use early 1950s In Korea, but we’ve had a whole we’ve bought fleets, fleets of them, between the 1950s. And now they’ve never been used as jet fighters. So there’s these ridiculous probe programs from assist the transfer of large amounts of cash into the private arena. But as you said, we’ve also got these areas where the weapons do get used, but mostly they’re small arms, transporters, tanks, you know, military vehicles and attack helicopters, drones, getting used drones get used for surveillance and finding people and they get used themselves to drop bombs on people and target people, target missiles. So, you know, so we do have a group of people who are victimized, directly victimized, and mostly that’s First Nations people first, but also people standing up in their own countries for justice, as the civil resistance, you know, you know, in many of the Global South, are being targeted by their own states with these weapons,

Lowkey – Hand on your gun 

Andy 

You’re on the Paradigm Shift on 4 triple Zed, that song you just heard is lowkey with hand on your gun, though I’m coming to you courtesy of my wife Bek who put it on the other day, a topical one for what we’re talking about. With a shout out to a few of the biggest arms companies in that song and they will be in Brisbane, from the fourth to the sixth of October for Land Forces Weapons Expo. I’ve been speaking with Margie Pestorius about what land forces is and why people are getting together to disrupt it. Let’s go back to that.

Andy 

Back to land forces. It’s a convergence of 100 or more weapons industry companies in Brisbane at the convention center. Now last year it this happened and there was a big resistance to it organized by disrupt land forces, I guess do you want to talk talk a bit about what happened last year?

Margie Pestorius 

Yeah, well, we, our idea is to disrupt it enough so that they don’t come back, they don’t come back to this community. Hopefully, they won’t come back to any community. But we making sure they don’t come back to this community and not wanting to hear they’re not welcome. So there’s a sense that we’re going to make things unpleasant, and make them feel unwelcome. And we’re going to find different ways of doing that. But you know, that’s not that nice. So we also have to find ways that that keep us connected, and make sure that we’re having enough of a good time to keep doing it because we have to be really persistent. So we’ll get quite a few days before it starts, we’ll look at how we can disrupt the bumping (?) how we can disrupt the vehicles going in and the setup, the big tanks going in the trucks, food, all the stuff that goes into a big conference center, we’ll also be having a sort of almost like a festival of ideas, we want to tell the stories of Radical Brisbane, we think there’s not it’s not a surprise that this is happening. This sort of resistance is happening in Brisbane because Brisbane has such a strong history of, of radical resistance. And we’re drawing on that we’re drawing on the community of that we’re drawing on the memories of that and we want to tell those stories. We want to bring people together. We want to remember that this city was militarized Aboriginal people here were militarized. And we want you know, we want to tell those stories, but we want to tell them in a way that’s also disruptive. So we want to find ways of also making the people attending unwelcome and having a really horrible time. It’s smelly time, noisy time, the time where people just tell them you are not welcome in this town. So there’ll be a mixture of different sorts of tactics, we’ve got ‘unwelcome clowns’, u’nwelcoming clowns’, or we might have other people who actually tried to stop vehicles going in there the sort of things that we did last year, I imagine those sorts of things will pop up again next year.

Andy 

Some things are the same this year, I mean, it’s going to be in the same venue at the Convention Center. And I guess a lot of the companies will be the same. And a lot of the groups are getting together to be part of disrupt land forces, probably the same other are there things that will have changes between last year and this year?

Margie Pestorius 

Well, I think, be more international visitors, because the international borders are open. So they did have international visitors last year, but they, I guess is most of them came through the embassies. And people were travelling, rich people and government people were traveling. But my guess is we’ll have more visitors from overseas this year. You know, this, each of the states are buying each of the states trying to sell. So. And they do that both in partnership with the big corporations. So I think that that’s one thing, let’s see different. But you know, Andy what we’re wanting is, especially for the people of Brisbane to come down, it’s quite, it’s quite a long time, it’ll be over seven days that the conference itself was only three days, but we like to prepare, so that by the time we’re starting people are ready, they know what they’re doing they are connected and having fun, and then know what sort of things are going to suit them to participate in participating but creatively when people come down with creative arts and music, creative theater, sort of … we’re ordinary people just trying to take back space in the streets of South Brisbane and make sure that these South Brisbane streets are not taken up by the arms industry, for its ???

Andy 

The militarism and the weapons industry and the army, I guess, have a lot of propaganda on this side. Just look at the most popular movie this year is, you know about the Air Force and whatever. And of course, cultural and as well as advertising and things like that. But land forces, there’s not so much public discourse around it. Is it just the government and the industry? Do they try to keep it quiet? Or are they trying to promote to the public what’s going on there?

Margie Pestorius 

I reckon it’s there that people are just not looking at it. This is one of the amazing things about Australia is we we go through life without blinkers on and we don’t look at things that we find uncomfortable or difficult or that we don’t want to know about. I think it’s a bit like the climate crisis slump for a long time, people didn’t want to look at it because it was too painful to own up to what was going on. And then you get through that you get through that period. And then you’re like, Alright, let’s do something about it. I think we’ve got to be going through that period with the weapons industry for a while. And I know that for me to go and look at what was going on, it’s not hard to find, you just have to subscribe to a couple of military magazines. And they tell you every day, you get a media release every day about a deal that’s been done or contract being signed, it’s all in plain sight. Where are they putting that information? It’s not hard to find that I don’t think they’re hiding it. So yeah, it’s just, you know, specialist if you like, especially sort of information. So we’re look, we we want people to go and look and start to not be avoided and expose yourself and just notice what’s going on. Because it’s pretty, it’s can be a little frightening. But we’re finding we’re getting wins. I mean, even last week, there was a STEM Education and Defense conference in South Brisbane. And we put pressure on one of the presenters, which was, which was a, which is quite a large community organization that was presenting their on some work that it does drones, I won’t say the name of the organization, but they did pull out. And we found that you know, if people actually put them under the gaze and under a community gaze and so what are you doing with weapons corporations? What are you doing presenting at a conference that’s sponsored by weapons Corporation for weapons business? And, you know, they’ll pull out because they know it’s the wrong thing to be doing?

Andy 

All right, well, if people are interested in disrupt land forces, how can they find out more info and potentially get involved?

Margie Pestorius 

We have a terrific site at disrupt land forces.org We’re just saying how it is. That’s what we’re doing. We’re disrupting land forces, the weapons exhibition, disrupt land forces.org. You can go there and there’s a couple of different places you can sign up to participate. Come to our public meeting. We’ve got a public meeting on the 10th of September and it’s going to be a great public meeting, drawing connections to the history In this town Aboriginal history and the way surveillance, incarceration and militarization have continued to subject Aboriginal people over time and and the way that non First Nations people have been caught up in a sort of pretense about that so we need to it’s about sort of opening ourselves to these ideas and to come along to that and get to know us there’s lots of places that you can join you don’t have to be right down there in the thick of things we’ve got a great kitchen group we’ve got lots of crafting happening in music you know there’s there’ll be a place for you whatever you’re interested in

Andy 

Alright, thanks very much Margie.